Culture Wars
Movie Commentary - “Jesus Camp”
by Jimmy Hopper
As noted in the bulletin this morning, we are providing a forum on the Riverblog to discuss our current Movie Night movie, Jesus Camp. The suggestions below are just that, suggestions, and everyone is free to discuss any ideas as comments. Please join in with your thoughts on the important concerns raised by this movie.
-The New York Times reviewer of this feature stated that this movement is “partly a response to the steady coarsening of mass culture in which the dominant values are commercial and the worldview is Darwinian in its amorality.” Is this completely accurate? Is commercialism really widely considered to be an enemy of evangelicalism? Will Christianity always be at odds with the world?
• The methods of Ms. Fischer and her group are obviously very effective in achieving their goals. Mass manipulation always seems disturbing when seen from outside but seems especially odious when the ones manipulated are children. How is this type of manipulation different from Joel O’Steen , Benny Hinn Billy Graham, James Dobson and Don Wildmon?
•These children are home-schooled and so are many reformed Christians. This obviously doesn’t lead to Kids on Fire. Are the motives different? If so, how are they different?
•There are scenes of children in camouflage with wooden swords in mock fights to heavy metal Christian music. There is also much talk about how Muslims indoctrinate children to go to war. Is this a viable response for a Christian? Are these the weapons of the New Testament for the cause of Christ?
•Ted Haggard makes an appearance ironically speaking against homosexuality. Should evangelical Christianity have someone who speaks for them on a high political level? Can any man really do this? Is it truly effective? Is it right and ethical?
•One of the children has been told and speaks of Protestant churches whose services are like Riverwood as being “dead churches where Jesus doesn’t visit.” Is emotionalism a requirement of the Church in the New Testament ? Can this be maintained? What is the proper place of emotionalism in Christianity?
•Ms. Fischer declares that “Extreme Liberals who look at this should be quaking in their boots.” Is she correct? Is this something to be desired?
•The interaction between Ms. Fischer and Mike Papantonio, the Air America talk show host, is very telling. Papantonio is a protestant Christian of Ms. Fischer’s “dead” church variety. Who “wins” the debate? What are their respective attitudes after the debate?
•All “evangelical” Christians tend to be perceived by the world as if their children were part of Kids on Fire. We are all lumped together. Can this be addressed? If so, how?
•What is laudable about the evangelicals that were portrayed?
Posted by Jimmy Hopper at May 6, 2007 08:32 PM
Eerily quiet in here……
OK, I’ll start. There are so many trails to follow, so this may get scattered…. This was one of the most disturbing things I’ve seen in a long time. I was aware of the premise and knew how some of this was to come off, but seeing it for the first time was still shocking.
Nazi youth camps came quickly to mind- really moreso to me than Islamic training camps. Perhaps because this was much more a brainwashing than a military exercise. Also reminded me of more than one youth camp and several churches I’ve been to in the past, sadly enough.
Certainly, much of this is highly reactionary. The idea of “Where did my country go?” and dealing with radical change over the past 15-20 years has been too much for many people to deal with.
I guess the biggest thing I took away is that these people were so inwardly focused (which is PC for Self Centered), that they were willing to manipulate children (and their thin-headed parents) through guilt, fear, abuse of authority, abuse of Scripture and anything else they could think of in order to further their cause. Pastor Becky stated that she wouldn’t be sure she could ‘enjoy Heaven’ without her work here being done. It’s all about her individual choices (or as she would say, being obedient to God) and who or what might stand in her way. In this regard, she is no different than her pro-abortion ‘enemies’. When dogma and causes become central, as opposed to Christ and His teaching, I suppose hatred of the opposition is the only logical conclusion.
The documentary seemed to hang together pretty well. The worst area as far as editing seemed to be interviewing the homeschooling mother. Some of her statements needed a little more context to evaluate them fairly. However, I lay more than a little responsibility at her (and other parents’) doorstep for not having the discernment to see what Pastor Becky et al were putting out for the kids. Too many homeschool parents rail at the public schools/gov’t, etc., for the content that they putting in the kids’ minds and yet don’t check out what they themselves are feeding the kids.
I would be curious as to what Pastor Becky would qualify as a Christian. That is to say, would we be in agreement as to the fundamentals of the faith. Would we agree on the Trinity, Authority of Scripture, Virgin Birth, Divinity of Christ, etc.? Many Pentecostals deny Trinitarian teaching these days. More than likely, she would meet our criteria of orthodox belief if we asked the questions. I’m not sure if we would meet hers if she were asking, however. Depending on how much she stressed second blessings (Speaking in tongues), and if there were anything added to the Gospel for salvation, we may fall short. Fortunately, as the girl, Rachel, pointed out, God is the judge, not man.
I am staunchly anti abortion- we can talk about that another time. My amazement with this group is that they act as though Roe v Wade took God by surprise. Did He not know about the true ‘lost generation’? Is He powerless to stop it? This is certainly not to say we should stand idly by and do nothing. The extreme idea overrode the actions in ‘Jesus Camp’, however. They took the approach that God either would not do something without our action or was impotent to work without us. If God were dependent on man’s actions, how depressing would that be?
On another note, Tim suggested I do some record scratching at a future concert….. I’ll have to visit a thrift store & find some old Peaches & Herb LPs or something….
Till then, we’ll sing three hymns & have a sermon.
More later, I’m sure.
Well, the eerie silence is very understandable to me. That is all I had at the end of viewing the film after church last night. I felt sad and angry and a lot of things, but not able to verbalize it very well. Of course, it’s easy to be angry at the “pastor”…but I think even having people like her in positions of authority is a judgement on the church. Ditto for Ted Haggard and others. Since I’ve homeschooled now for 16+ years, I cringe at being identified with the families interviewed. It all seemed so phony and so shallow. I wondered where the Dad’s were…of course it appeared one of them was in the military service and absent from home. That alone can cause some unfortunate drifts when Mom is in sole authority. I wish I had some insightful things to say and add…right now I don’t. It’s an important film, but I don’t agree with the radio commentator that we are in danger of these people taking over the country or anything. I kept thinking of Theodore Roosevelt’s allusions to the “lunatic fringe” of any established group or entity. Hopefully that is what Pastor Becky and her sort are…still, I am horrified to think of where they are leading those children, and what those children will be as leaders themselves. Sad.
I can identify with both Jeff and Peggy’s feelings after viewing this movie. Like Jeff, I was shocked after the first viewing, although I had seen trailers, clips and the review in the NY Times Movie Review section. This time, like Peggy, I was still shocked, but saddened to see what was happening, especially looking at those beautiful children.
The thing that really came to me, after the second viewing Sunday night, was the shrill and mean-spirited attitude all of them had; both adults and indoctrinated children, and the total lack of compassion they have for the lost.
Two things came to mind. First, we have been reading and discussing Schaeffer’s “The God Who is There” in the Riverwood Book Group, and I thought of how different their “evangelism” was to his theme of love and compassion to those he was talking to and trying to reach.
The second thing was Carolyn’s thought. She remembered as we discussed the movie an incident that occured some years ago. Our daughter went with our Church Youth Choir to Boston to sing in churches but also to conduct VBS in some of the slum areas. As they came to one location (in a local church bus), the Boston police interviewed them individually to try to find out if they were doing this voluntarily or if it was some sort of cultic activity. That upset us at the time, but after watching “Jesus Camp,” Carolyn said she could relate to what the police did. I can also.
There was a lot of discussion after the movie. Share your thoughts here with all of us.
I wanted to comment yesterday, but the unfortunate demands of work prevented my pontificating. But not for long…
I suspect that the reason that folks are slow to post on this is that it’s hard to know where to start. There was so much that’s so wrong, where does one begin? Even trying to address Jimmy’s discussion questions could constitute a small dissertation.
So I’ll try to sort out my main impressions. I did not appreciate the way the makers of the film equated evangelicals with pentecostals. I realize the rapid growth of pentecostalism, and don’t deny that its adherents are a significant segment of larger group of evanglicals. However, the two are not synonymous.
The false dichotomy that this creates is pentecostals versus liberal mainline churches. That leaves out many, many evangelicals who might have some degree of agreement with “pastor” Becky on political issues, but strong disagreements with her teaching, methodology, and theology. Query whether the makers of the movie intended to set up the argument in such a fashion, or were they simply ignorant of the existence of other types of Christians?
Readers of this blog are quite familiar with my political views, but, with my full conservative Republican credentials intact, I have to say that the scene where the cardboard cutout of George W. Bush was worshipped (the only word I can think of to describe it) was the most disgusting thing I have witnessed in a long time. If that’s not idolatry, I’ve never seen it. Absolutely repulsive. I literally could not sit still and watch it.
That brings us to my last point, which Jeff has already touched on - the complete confusion between patriotism/nationalism and Christianity. The 10-year old “preacher” kid said at one point something like “America is God’s country, right?” - just like it was inscribed on the tablets on Sinai, and no one could really question it. I don’t want anyone to think that I don’t love America. I do; I’ve travelled to lots of other parts of the world, and I wouldn’t be anywhere else but here. I really think it’s the greatest country in the world. However, to think that it’s the special province of God is, in my view, completely baseless. Surely, God has used the US in His providence, and has surely blessed us with many, many good gifts that most of the world does not enjoy. But it’s not a reward for being so great or faithful or loyal.
The homeschool mom fell victim to the same flawed logic. She reasoned that the US was founded on “Judeo-Christian values”, and that it all started going downhill when they took prayer and creation out of the public schools. Now, I have some strong opinions about education, but to think that removing prayer from public schools was the straw the broke the camel’s back with God is just silly. It’s also sadly misinformed about history. There weren’t even any public schools to have prayer in for the first half of the country’s history. How did God feel about that?
This all just reinforces some discussions we’ve had here about the need for the church (broadly, not just Riverwood) to devote substantial energy to producing well educated, clear thinking Christians. Leaving the field to “pastor” Becky’s kids is not an attractive option for Christendom.
This movie made me sick. My wife grew up in this kind of atmosphere and I was not that far away from it. It is amazing how much this kind of “Christian” can twist the Bible in his own head.
After living around many of these kinds of Christians in my life, I have come to the conclusion that their actions stem from a lack of faith. This sounds strange at first until I realized that it comes as a form of overcompensation.
The militant Christian does not trust God enough to let him work, but instead must be a “soldier of Christ” and fight for him against unbelief. This immidiately turns into an “us vs them” mentality and throws the teaching of love and acceptance out the window. They are in a sense overcompensating for their unbelief by going to the other extreme and fighting for Christianity, even though Christ never asked us to do that.
Unfortunately, I have close family that still have this mindset. It is impposible to reason with them because they have twisted their belief so that their faith is dependant on their actions, and their twisting of scripture make it impossible to argue. The only thing that is left is to pray for them a lead by example. Maybe one day they will wake up.
Tyler